Have you tried them on sisi yet ??

They really aren't OP. Speculation based upon your opinion =/= reality. Please I beg test them on sisi and them come back and comment.

The mwd bonus is to make them more viable in nullsec. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, good luck to a Retribution taking down a Wolf.

Retribution should kill Caldari AFs in theory, in practice it may have difficulties, which is why I keep saying that it needs to be better. Or maybe the Hawk/Harpy just needs some tweaks?

You know what's good against an active tank Vengeance? A blaster ship that overpowers the reps. A brick fit Vengeance is good but nothing that other AFs couldn't beat either.

What you see as balance problem I see as (mostly) working rock/paper/scissors system.

AFs were not very good against a very wide majority of ships.

On TQ they are not very good because they offer very minimal amounts of flexibility.
AB fits are too slow unless you have means to land on your target, and MWD fits are suicidal.
The extra slots can be looked at as something that balances the AFs within their own circle.
On TQ some AFs are absolutely awful without support, and others are significantly better (ie: Ishkur vs Retribution).

The bonuses benefit the ships intended weapons platforms/slot layouts.
Compared to the turret boats, missile platforms were comparatively weak against larger targets. So they got a ROF bonus. Ships with 2 mid slots get a tracking bonus & range bonus to make up for their lack of range control.

The Hawk got a 5th mid because it's the only ship that uses its mids to propel, tank, tackle, and apply damage.
Its currently impossible to do that without dropping a critical function. IE: Rockets suck against frigates/drones without a web.

And to answer the inevitable question of why not just copy HACs;
Making pure 1/4th scale HACs doesn't really work because the bonuses don't always translate well to the frigate level.
Smaller scale PVP is quite different from that of the larger ships.

There are some standouts, but my understanding is that faction ships are supposed to offer some aspects of T2 frigs, but with some drawbacks of T1. AFs on TQ are (typically) dwarfed by faction ships.

AFs and Faction frigates offer different advantages/disadvantages.

Destoyers/Interdictors > AFs
For Interdictors, they need balancing to begin with but I can assure you that they are still very capable of shredding AFs.

As for the Hawk, I'm not sure what planet you're living on where the Hawk is ridiculous.
If you want to dump billions into it tank like a monster, go right ahead. You're still not invulnerable, not by a long shot.
Yes rockets are decent now, but not on the Hawk. Try putting an AB Hawk against an AB Ishkur right now on TQ and see how far you get without a web or tank. Or maybe a Daredevil or Dramiel or Worm.

Are swarms of them going to shred a single target? Yes.
Are swarms of them capable of killing targets on TQ right now? Yes.

So feel free to flesh out your reasoning behind slots balancing breaking.
It's one thing to say that's what will happen, and it's something else entirely to actually prove it.
My experience with them on sisi is that they are just fine. They are still quite killable by BCs & Cruisers.

The Hawk
....

tl;dr GÇô Dual web hawk has 10k ehp, does 250dps at any point within web range, can range control anything except a cruor/daredevil. Solutions are proposed...

@Alex: Maybe, but for all I know you might anyway. Fact is, it still has fitting limitations to account for.

@Alex
I'm glad we're starting to see eye to eye

The Wolf is alright, I think it's fairly balanced because in order for it to do reasonably high damage, it needs to sacrifice a fair bit of tank. T2 Matari don't make the greatest armor tankers, so I think it's a fair trade.

The Enyo is a bit tanky for what kind of damage it can do. Although for every person I smoke with it, I get easily trumped by someone else in a Wolf or something, so I'm unsure if the extra 200 armor is that bad a thing.

The Hawk, as I said elsewhere is pretty niceley balanced. It's DPS isn't obscene, and the high numbers are pretty much restricted to Kinetic.

The Jag needs more fittings and a probably some extra base shields. Slightly more powergrid and a fair bit more CPU would balance it out nicely with the rest.

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I can't account for changes on SiSi without access to it or taking the time to run the numbers properly.

Also, I just generally assumed that the Missile bonus was for Light Missiles rather than Rockets. Last time I flew a Hawk was early on in my EVE career, and Rockets kinda sucked; so did the Hawk for that matter, as much as I liked it. Even then, I only flew it once or twice, tried a Harpy; then decided both ships were to expensive to field given their limitations.

Fitting is just to max. DPS within fitting req. for crucible. I kept it to 3 damge mod's for the Retribution because it was in contrast to the Vengeance. Really, I think it had the CPU and Grid to fit another. Veangence was maxed in CPU, or very nearly; and the Hawk wasn't far behind, even though it only fit 2 BCUs.

I'm using EFT to baseline the current line-up to see what problems they have; which is how I came up with the adjustments in my post up there. Also why I didn't do anything to the Enyo or Ishkur; as neither needs any changes.

Measuring additional CPU and Armor or Shield boosts doesn't require any math, and is fairly easy to account for. For the Slots, I just used common sense and some past experience with the ships, while accounting for the fact that they'd primarily be MWD boats after this.

Regardless, point being that Extenders boost Sig, and that would have had ~288 Sig. radius with 2 extenders added.

Really, it's over PG with 2 MSE + MWD by 10.25 points, and by 3.25 with best named; before you bother fitting anything else including guns; so the earlier argument posted by Alex is completely invalid unless you fit Faction/Complex/Officer across the board. You can do that with anything.

The difference between myself and the rest being stubborn, is that I've got the hard evidence and you (as a group) do not.

@Alex
That's all well and good, but nobody has yet shown how exactly said ships would be overpowered.
Comparing them to other frigates is an awful argument because the other frigates already fall to AFs.

Some Pirate frigs will need a boost, fine. That's not enough to discredit the boost.

The lesser T1 cruisers need a boost, fine. This has been known for years, and needs to be done if AFs get boosted or not. Once again, not enough to discredit the boost.

@Alex
Sure.
Within themselves, here's whats wrong (imo):

Enyo: 2 mids, no range control and the closest range weapons. Outperformed in every way by its counterpart, the Ishkur

Ishkur: 1 of the only good AFs.

Vengeance: damage output is far too low and tank is too weak (when not injected). The *good* AFs outperform it

Retribution: 1 mid slot makes this ship worthless.

Jag: Currently one of the good AFs. Nothing terribly wrong with it beyond AFs being crap overall.

Wolf: Currently decent, but suffers greatly against smaller/faster ships. I routinely kill these with rocket Maledictions.

Hawk: low damage output, and 4 mids which further limits its damage output and tanking ability

Harpy: very similar to the Enyo, only it's insanely difficult to fit well and doubly as fat making it more useless.

All AFs suffer from lack of survivability. They are only useful against (relatively) noob/oblivious targets in empire space.
AB fits are popular in low-sec because you don't have gate hazards or grid spanning fights (generally). They also make it really easy to tank plexes and such. The benefits of low-sec are spread equally for each class (ie: plex camping) but are more relevant for AFs because you can do such things without a really need for mobility.

Prom have you actually been on the recieving end of a Battle Helios or a dual web Hookbill with a TD? They are not simple to kill at all unless you're in a missile boat.

Removing the RoF bonus of the Hawk and replacing it with an explosion velocity would make it great. If they really want to add a slot, add a high slot & launcher slot. DPS on paper would be approximately the same BUT you wouldn't have a frigate with 5 mids.

The Hawk is easily one of the best AFs out there currently and I have no issues dealing with Thrashers in it currently. This, it needs a smaller boost than other AFs such as the Jaguar.

I like how some pilots have been linking their r3tarded and terrible set-ups. That they then proverb as being OVERPOWERED. No! You are dumb. Prom is correct in terms of what ships will be able to counter most common dual stasis webifier set-ups. Without being specifically set-up to do so (other than using long range ammunition).

Well, provided that a Hawk is not using a tracking disruptor: rail-Ishkur, rail-Enyo, Retribution, Vengeance (javelin), Hawk, rail-Harpy (which also does dual stasis webifier). Not including other frigates that can also do the same.

Against a Tracking disrupting Hawk. Any rail assault frigate with Spike ammunition (which can definitely track a frigate @ that range). Assault frigates that use missiles and drones.

Sad that you even ask...


-proxyyyy

Your right, this isn't a thread about firetails and i probly shouldnt have expected you to have some perfect fix for them off the top of ur head. And yes thats a pretty cool idea. Although IMO i think 5th mid would open up a lot more for firetail, and I can't see how it would overpower it either. Another reason I don't like the drone idea is that it forces to train drone skills to get the most out of a mater class, which isn't very fitting of a "faction" frigate.. And the 40 dps extra just gives it Jag dps which pretty much keeps it in that box tbh. I would like to see a firetail +15 cpu +mid, give it an invul or shield boost and a better reason for me to stop armor tanking it =p

to be honest, i wouldn't be asking for faction frigs to be buffed if AF's weren't just buffed. considering they are exactly the same price

Now you say this, but have you actually tested it?

I was dueling Prom in the "uberwtfdualwebmsehawk" fit vs his Ishkur. I had him nice and contained at about 9k. He popped out his Hobgoblin IIs, I moved webs over on to the drones and started popping them. I killed two, but was dropping into 1/4 shields by this point. I swapped back to him and he killed me with about 15-20% armour. Those drones weren't that quick to drop.

It wasn't just one duel either.

Admittedly, I wasn't attempting to disengage which would have been an option, but if this Hawk is so OP surely I wouldn't need to. I've got perfect shield skills and near perfect rocket skills (4/5 rocket spec, all the rest 5/5)

I wasn't using Hobgoblins..
I was using Warriors & Acolytes, and Anja wasn't shooting kinetic at me

Minmatar Online, when will this **** end?

- Kem.

If all else fails, it's always possible to give AFs a unique role that no other ship can fill.

Some possibilities:

1) Armor Breaker and Shield Breaker modules: reduce the target's armor and shield resistances by a small amount. Can only be fitted by AFs. Uses a highslot, 8 km range.
2) Anti-logistic module: reduces the effectiveness of the target's remote rep and shield transfer modules. Can only be fitted by AFs. Uses a highslot. 20 km range.

These are both things that gangs of a certain size would want to have. There's not even any need to reduce AF combat capabilities because these modules would only start to become useful in gangs with at least several people.

That said I'm not convinced that this would be needed. If the SiSi incarnation of AFs fails on Tranquility, then it would be worth considering.

My final take;
Back to drawing-board and don't even mention any sort of bonus before this pesky question has been answered: What is their role?

What advantage does a Tornado/oracle/talos/naga have over.....

Except in this case it would be compounded.

Then why even discuss the merits of a MWD sig reduction as it does not facilitate said role and tracking also does nothing for damage except against a few AB frigs (the only thing in game that can tracking tank small guns to begin with).

If they are to be mini-HACs then design them as such, don't start mixing in destroyer and interceptor traits just because some noob (/me waves to null) might need it the one time per week he flies the damn things.

But of course, that is where the problem lies .. they CAN'T be mini-HACs because they do not have the base EHP and medium tracking is high enough to insta-gib them even if they did.

Which brings me back to: What is their role?

I am pretty sure that if you blow up 15km from a cruiser the damage you inflicted is much smaller than the damage you *would* have inflicted if you had gotten under 4km on that cruiser.